SEO Series | The Evolving Search Landscape of 2023, from E-E-A-T to AI

Learn about the biggest changes to SEO over the last year, including the EEAT update and the growth of AI search and generative AI, and hear how these changes are impacting B2B engineering companies like yours.

For part one of this two-part series on SEO for technical, B2B companies, we’re joined by Lily Ray, Senior Director of SEO and Head of Organic Research at Amsive Digital. Lily has spent the last 11 years in agencies, focused on SEO and organic research across many industries, and she brings a wealth of experience to our episode today.

Google has been in a period of rapid evolution, with multiple core updates released over the last few years. The biggest update, E-E-A-T, has changed the search landscape, prioritizing experience, expertise, authority and trustworthiness of websites and individual authors alongside other, long standing ranking factors. Lily cites how she’s seeing E-E-A-T and other core updates impact client sites, as well as how businesses can find success in organic search by focusing on user experience first and foremost.

If the frequent shifts in Google’s algorithm weren’t enough, we also have the rapid adoption of AI changing how people search for and create content. After spending months testing ChatGPT and AI search engines, Lily has takeaways on the smart, responsible ways of using these tools, and why it’s dangerous to use the tools without a firm understanding of how they work and what they do and do not do. She also shares how she’s using this new toolset to create efficiencies in info sourcing and content reuse, to augment rather than replace current processes.

Resources

• Lily Ray on Twitter
• Lily Ray on LinkedIn
• Lily Ray’s website
• Amsive Digital: SEO Articles

Transcript:

Today, we're kicking off a two part series on SEO, focusing on what's changed in search over the last year and how technical B2B companies can create thoughtful strategic content for their very specific, highly technical audiences that also serve search engines. Today, I talked to Lily Ray of Amsive Digital, focusing on the biggest changes Google has made to its algorithm in recent years and how these changes impact SEO best practices for niche B2B companies like yours and ours. We also discuss the very quick evolution and adoption of AI and how generative AI and AI search engines impact current day SEO. Hi, and welcome to Content Marketing, Engineered. Erin Moore, account Director at TREW Marketing, and I'll be your host for the next two episodes. For this series, we'll focus on changes in the search landscape and how to create content that speaks to your specific technical or scientific audience as well as to search engines. Before we begin, I'd like to give a brief shout out to our agency, TREW Marketing. TREW is a full service agency based in Austin serving highly technical companies. For more information about TREW, visit trewmarketing.com onto our episode.

Welcome to another episode of Content Marketing Engineered. I'm here with Lily Ray, the senior director of SEO and head of Organic research at Amsive Digital. Lily is a prominent SEO professional based in Brooklyn who speaks all over the world about all the latest developments in SEO and AI, which is actually how I first saw her at MozCon last year. So, Lily, before we dig into the current search landscape and the impact of AI, which is a very hot topic right now, I'd like to hear a little bit more about your background, what led you to SEO in the first place, and how did that evolve into what you're doing now and your current focus.

Sure thing. So I started doing SEO at the end of college. I was actually not studying anything related to SEO. I was studying politics and spanish at NYU, and I found SEO kind of just like, coincidentally. It was a job that I found on Craigslist, and it was a paid job, unlike many jobs at that time. And I do come from a pretty techy family. So my father's a software engineer. My mother was a technical writer at one point. My brother is a web developer, and I grew up in the Bay Area, really around a lot of these emerging tech companies and concepts and everything. So I had the skills for it and really just kind of fell in love with it. I didn't even know what SEO was before that job. And it was the most amazing combination of analytical skills, technical skills, creative skills, marketing skills. And I kind of just changed my whole career trajectory at that point and started doing SEO full time right out of college. So I've been doing it ever since, and I've now been in the agency world for just over ten years, maybe eleven years now.

Worked at two different agencies and have served in like a director level role for probably like six or seven years now. And now I'm the Senior SEO Director. So we have other directors on our team, but we have an SEO team of 30 plus people, many, many different clients, and just a lot of different categories that we service. So it's very exciting times.

Yeah, that's great. It's funny how many people have similar stories about just kind of finding their way into SEO and marketing, especially. Those two fields seem to be like, half of our team started in PR or Spanish or other areas and then just kind of found their way. So funny how people made their way into it.

Totally.

Well, that's great. Okay, so I have a couple of areas that I'd like to talk with you because I think you've, again, kind of been on the forefront of a lot of these topics. So starting with Google and how volatile all the changes within the last few years, I think a lot of us have personally felt it, a lot of our clients have felt it with just all the core updates. So of all the changes that they've been making, I guess, what has changed that search landscape the most and where are you seeing the most impact that people are feeling?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think in terms of the algorithms themselves and what Google is aiming to achieve algorithmically, I think that probably the most common factor, and obvious factor, if you read their communications, is E-E-A-T: experience, expertise, authority, and trust. There's many other things at play, many other factors, many other updates that have happened. But that's probably the biggest change to search on Google, I think, over the past several years. And we can talk about that, but the other big thing to consider is the look and feel of the search results, particularly with regard to the flow of traffic to organic search results. So plenty of people have shown screenshots of what Google has looked like over the years, and more and more it becomes like almost like an app, right? It's like it has all these different functionalities and things that you can do directly in the search results that obviously cut into organic traffic in many cases. So it's not just about the ten blue links anymore. There's a lot of different places that you need to be focused on.

That's great. Yeah, we have definitely noticed that. It's interesting. We run research every year, and one of the top questions is how deep will people go page wise in the search results? And it'll be interesting to see how that changes now that there are no pages in a lot of ways, now that it just kind of is a continuous scroll.

Yeah, it's always changing, and even the tools can't keep up with the changes. So many of our tools still report on page level rankings and we still talk about it all the time. We have to get into our team. We have to condition ourselves to like not page two, but position 20, right?

Yeah, I know. And now all the analytics are changing too. So constant change, the only normal. Great. Well, as all these changes happen, I guess, what is Google looking at to consider? What is quote unquote, good content or just what best answers? A user's query? You mentioned the Eeat and I'm assuming that factors a lot into it.

Yeah, that's the million dollar question. Right. I think people often like, here's the thing, there's probably thousands, if not millions of signals that they're looking at, and we don't exactly know how much they're waiting. Each one for each query, or for each intent, or for navigational or commercial. There's so many different factors that can change the weighting of what Google is looking to rank. So all the things are important. Everything that you might be considering is an SEO ranking factor. Whether it has or has not been confirmed by Google probably does play a role in SEO performance. They can't tell us, all of them, and in fact, that they don't want to tell us things like click through rate or user engagement. They're not going to tell us that that's a direct ranking signal because guess what SEOs do when they learn that something is a ranking factor. The whole world finds out and then we exploit it. That's what we do. So they have to be intentionally ambiguous. They have to be indirect about how these things work. But time and time again, when you focus on user experience, you focus on conversions and performance and all these things that lend themselves to a good user experience on the page, you tend to rank better in SEO.

So all the things matter. I don't think that there's one straight answer, but you should take a look at what is ranking for the keywords that you care about and really kind of extrapolate from there.

Yeah, it's a good way to do it. Thinking about your audience first and thinking about the search engine second.

Exactly.

A lot of people don't do it that way. Great. Well, okay, let's dig into the original eat moving into Eeat, because this is something that I think a lot of our audience doesn't super know about. It's a lot that's baked into content generation and everything we're doing, but there's very specific ways that Google likes to see these things played out. So how does Google evaluate content and people for what seems like a really abstract idea of something like expertise and authority?

Yeah, and this is another really hot topic in our space because they don't like to tell eat and eat. Previously, eat is probably the single topic that Google has been most vague about, I would say. You know what I mean? Like with structured data or with page experience, or with anything else XML sitemaps. It's very clear what the guidance is, step by step process for how to do it. But with Eat, they're very intentionally vague. And if you talk to any of the Google representatives trying to understand the individual factors, which I've done, believe me, many times they can't tell you. And in fact, they don't necessarily always know. So the best clue that we have is the search quality rater guidelines, which is 160 pages, many of which talk about what are the different factors that would contribute to a page being authoritative or someone being an expert? Like they'll say, oh, an expert in cooking should have some demonstrated experience with writing cookbooks or being featured on the food network or whatever the case may be. But you have to think about that in the context of what you're they don't spell it out for every profession.

So when you understand conceptually what Google is looking for, you work at a company like ours. We're an SEO agency where we have hundreds of different clients in different categories. It's like, okay, you're an expert in this. What would be the credentials in your field that an expert would have? Because we want to get those sometimes.

It's easy. And I think this is something that we at TREW have personally struggled with, because first, we're the experts in technical engineering, marketing. We've got two books. We've got a research series. But I think it is hard to sometimes translate that and go, okay, but how does a search engine understand this contextually of who we are and how are we showing them that expertise? And I think a lot of our clients struggle with that too.

Yeah, and one thing that really kind of changed my thinking around it, bill Slowski, rest in peace, he was an amazing SEO former attorney who interpreted Google patents for years and wrote about them. And he and I actually did a couple of articles and a little bit of research together because I really wanted to understand from him, how would Google on a technical level do this if they were trying to understand authoritativeness and expertise, what signals are available to them? What technology do they have to be able to do this? And that really kind of illuminated a lot for me, because he talked about there's ways that Google can evaluate content, like use natural language processing technology to see if something is on par with what they would expect expert content to look like in that category. And this was years ago, right? So now we have such more sophisticated algorithms. So people are always like, oh, if I put the word expert next to my name, is that enough? I'm like, no, right. More that goes into it than that, yeah.

Well, that's a good tip to kind of look at what else is out there and understand what Google is comparing you to as well. To understand what an expert looks like.

Exactly.

Great. So I guess have you seen this whole idea change? And maybe there's not a concrete example, but thinking about as Google has kind of refined eat into eat, has anything changed with that without addition of experience? Or is it just kind of doing the same thing, but just slightly different parameters, slightly different tweaking?

Yeah, I think it actually has changed. I can kind of confidently say that now, and that's only recently. So they added experience in December to the search quality guidelines. And again, the search quality guidelines is just like a rubric for how Google's search quality evaluators score their content. So you're never going to see a search quality evaluator's results of the evaluation directly changing the search results the next day. It doesn't work like that, but they take all that feedback at scale and they tweak things for future algorithms. So what I thought was really interesting is now we know we can almost isolate this new factor that they're looking for, and we'll probably see in 2023 there's going to be updates that elevate some of the work that the evaluators have been doing. And I was expecting to see that with the core update. There was a March core update. I don't think we necessarily saw it as much as I was expecting, but very shortly after, there was the reviews update. So Google took what used to be the Product Reviews ranking system and there were six updates to that system. They've launched a 7th update to that system in March so last month.

And now it's just the reviews system. So it's not just products that are being reviewed, it's any site that contains reviews of anything can be affected. And I just did a big analysis in an article last week about this, but this is the first time that I'm seeing, at least in the data, clear examples of sites that don't have experience and sites that do have experience seeing very different patterns. Of course there's other things going on, but there's a very clear pattern with sites that are going down. And actually many of them have been doing very well in recent years. Even with the recent March Corps update, they did well, but they don't have evidence that the writers have experience. So if I'm here in New York and I'm writing the guide to the best restaurants in Atlanta, and I've never been to Atlanta, and I'm using what everybody else has said, I don't have experience. So Google is actually cracking down on that now. And that has very big impacts for a lot of affiliate marketers niche, website owners, bloggers. It changes the whole game.

Yeah, that's great. So I have a couple more questions before we can dig into some other topics here, but you've talked about this concept of eat and in the past I've heard you speak about google is really looking at your kind of links between companies, people, different entities. So how are they seeing that relationship? I know some of this is conjecture of just like, here's how we think they see it. But I guess what is the best way to show Google the links between your company, your people, their expertise, to kind of take advantage of maybe a thought leader who works in a company who's got domain expertise.

Yeah, definitely. I think that's actually probably one of the strongest levers at our disposal that we can affect how Google understands our content. So that's actually one of the big things that we focus on when we do, like Eeat audits or evaluations with our clients. Because you can be a renowned expert and you can be mentioned in all these different places online or whatever, but maybe you haven't thought about how those things are linked together. So a lot of the times, it's just like creating those connections, because that's probably the first place Google understands how the Internet works and how things are connected is like, the links. That's what they've had patented for 20 plus years. But, yeah, the more you can do to reduce ambiguity and make things more clear. So when someone mentions your name, you should link back to your author, bio your personal site or whatever that is, and just make that a pattern. We work with our clients a lot to like, okay, this is the concept you care about. It's just like internal linking, right? You wrote about it. All these pages, we should probably link back to that one page that we care about.

So it's the same with people. It's the same with organizations. There's lots of third party sites where Google looks to and searchers and users look to to validate. Oh, they're on test pilot. Oh, they're on Better Business Bureau. Oh, they're on yelp. Those connections are important. So every industry has their own set of industry relevant connections and sites and everything that they should be on. But those links are very important for that reason.

Yeah, it's funny, I feel like everything is new, but nothing is new. Keep doing those good things, keep showing and making it easy for Google and your users to find you.

Yeah, I think the thing that is new in this whole discussion is there was a new well, not new anymore, but in 2018, there was an extra layer of scrutiny about literally who wrote it and why can we trust them? So the difference and I have a lot of screenshots and data to show this, but the difference is that in 2017, anybody could have gone and made a blog about best ways to cure Psoriasis at home, best ways to cure rosacea, whatever, and you just write the content. SEO Optimize, it, put pictures, stock photography, and put a lot of ads. And it worked like, there's a lot of number one rankings, because whatever they were doing, building links, whatever they were doing, that was sufficient for Google to say, this is the best content. What changed in 2018? 2019 is like, who is this person? Are these facts on this page consistent with what the scientists and the doctors are saying on their sites? Because if there's any discrepancies there, this is dangerous content. We can't write content. So that did change the ballgame. It's not just about anybody can write anything. You have to know what you're talking about.

That's great. Makes it better for users.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, great. Well, okay. Pivoting to AI. I think everyone's favorite topic right now, or everyone's least favorite, depending on their viewpoint. There's a couple of different facets that I'm seeing when it comes to SEO around this entire topic of AI. So, starting abroad, what impact have you seen so far when it comes to generative AI and AI search? How is it changing kind of SEO and how people are doing things?

We're at a point right now where it's still so new. It's not new and it is new, but it's relatively speaking, it's pretty new. So the impact of what this is doing to the SEO and the content industry and everything like that, I don't know that we've necessarily had enough time to analyze the impact. I think that in six or twelve months, if you ask people like me, or people that speak at events about SEO or do research, we'll have a pretty clear a lot of tests that we couldn't have run and experiments that we could have looked at to see what's happening. I also don't think that the search engines are necessarily able to keep up as quickly algorithmically with what people are doing. I don't want to make it sound like AI content is inherently bad at this point. GPT four is better than most writers. It's moving really quickly. But yeah, we don't necessarily have the data. I think there's plenty of people who will show you their little chart of I started writing 50 AI content pieces a day, and look how well I'm ranking. Okay, great. We've seen these charts in the SEO space for a long time.

Just because things go up doesn't mean they keep going up. In many cases, they crash and burn. So I anticipate a lot of crash and burning soon. But that's not to say there aren't responsible, ethical, smart, strategic ways to use the tools. In fact, I'm totally a convert. I love Shat GPT. I had my moments of not loving it, but now I'm converted. But I will say that it took maybe two months of seriously learning what it does and what it doesn't do, and a lot of research, because it's really dangerous to just trust the output of these tools without knowing how they work.

Yeah, we've noticed that. We've noticed some queries that we've put in knowing the topic and the subject matter and just kind of seeing what they'll spit back. We've seen the flaws of sometimes if you're trying to get something company specific, it's trying not to plagiarize. So it's changing your messaging or it's changing your product facts a little bit and giving you wrong information. Or again, it's pulling slightly out of your sphere that you're looking for and so it gives you something completely incorrect. Definitely have seen that firsthand, but yeah, we're in the same boat. Very interesting to see where it's going to end up.

Yeah. And it's a weird tool. And the fact that it has so many users now, what is it, like 10 million users in a month or something? Like something just ridiculous. But the whole world is using it, right? And they don't tell you, we're 80% confident about this answer, right? They tell you in the beginning, this is a large language model, it has these caveats and people are like, okay, I consent. They're not really paying attention to what that means. But then now people are just using this carte blanche, like on their websites, on their this, to make decisions, to do all these things. And it's like they don't know which parts are wrong or they don't know whether or not it was actually confident. It always sounds confident. So that, to me, is the alarming part.

Yeah, I agree with that. It's almost like you want to see all the sources for every piece of information and vet it before you run with it. And I'm sure there's ways to use it, right? I know. I'm sure if you ask deep enough, it'll give you the specific areas it pulled from.

I think OpenAI is very intentional about not sharing that, at least through chat GPT, it literally I can't share my sources. So that's the secret sauce. Right. But Bing Chat, which uses GPT technology, is very clear about citing sources, which is great because they're actually using like they're very clear. Bing is using Bing search results and then they're using GPT technology to create the chat, which is for me. Bing chat is the coolest thing out there right now because it's like you did it. You took the search results, which already have built in algorithms for quality control, relevance, Eeat, all these things being called a QC, and you're using the chat bot to summarize it.

Right. That makes a lot of sense to me. So that is also a very interesting area, and I don't know if we know yet, how does using an AI search engine change search and websites and just like, how people are finding and perusing information? Because thinking about it, if the search engine is acting fully in this Q and A capacity where it's kind of been moving that way with a lot of the info boxes, what is that going to do to search? I guess? Do you have any thoughts on that? Any kind of gut instincts?

I have a lot of thoughts on it. I mean, I've had Bing Chat and bard and Chat GPT as like, little icons on my phone screen for several months because I know how they all work and I know when to use them. Frankly, I don't use Bard that much. Once you get used to using Bingchat, it's like, I don't really know what I need Bard for. Sorry, Google, but that might change soon. I do think it's very interesting. It is. Assuming that these products continue the way that they're continuing, especially assuming that in Google I O, which is in six days, google announces that they're integrating Bard or Magi or whatever they want to call it, directly into the search results. Of course, that's the biggest news in our industry of all time, that's transformational to SEO. Unfortunately, right now, as it stands with Google, there's not a lot of evidence or indication that they're doing this in a way that's going to continue to support publishers or even Advertisers. So we're all very eagerly awaiting what they're going to say in six days. But the way that Bing created Bing Chat is really nice because they went so far to incorporate citations throughout the answers and other links to Bing places and different things around the Bing ecosystem.

So I bravo to them because it's best of both worlds. So I use bing chat frequently, but I use Google all the time and I feel like same with chat GPT. For me, at least, it's not a replacement. They're all just different. They do different things.

That makes a lot of sense. I do like the idea that thing is augmenting search and not replacing it. It's hand in hand. I think we're all eagerly awaiting, seeing what happens. This would be the time where you want to be able to look a couple of months into the future.

Yeah, that reminds me, I should probably mark my calendar for a few hours before and after.

Just processing all the information and figuring out what advice needs to come out of it.

Exactly.

All right, great. I'm really interested. So thinking about going back to generative AI, seeing some of this stuff that gets spit out. So we only work with highly technical companies, it's engineers speaking to engineers. So even if we're writing content coming straight from an engineer, if the engineer is writing content, so it's a very specific audience. There's not a lot of room for error. There's no room for error. Realistically, thinking about generative AI, we're seeing a lot of either shallow content duplicative. So it's hard to imagine that being useful for such a technical space where there is so much input and also just being able to trust the results coming out. But I guess do you see that part changing as the tools evolve? What are your thoughts on the use of generative AI for longer form content, for more technical content versus I think it's easy enough to use it B to C right now.

Yeah, I think that's probably like the fundamental thing that I've learned in my little trajectory of learning how I want to use Chat GPT. I rarely use it. And our team doesn't like we won't use it for our clients to just generate content out of thin air because of what you're describing. As much as it sounds convincing, as much as it sounds like it knows what it's talking about, of course, for some topics it's completely spot on. But for more technical topics, or for more topics where you require experience or expertise, that's not what it's best at. Even though it does it, it's not wise to use it for those reasons. Now, can you take a data set that you have or take content that you have and use Chat GPT to do interesting things with your content? That's, for me, where it gets really exciting. Can you evaluate this? Tell me five ways to improve it. Tell me how it's different from this block of content. Tell me if you were an audience that was interested in this thing. What is missing from this text? That's, for me, where it gets really exciting. So I think, great, we get it.

It writes poetry, it writes articles. I don't know. Once you start to figure out the capabilities of what this thing can do in terms of accelerating things that we were doing before, either manually or through hiring lots of people to do really menial analysis right. It's a game changer.

Yeah, we've seen the uses. It's good, like you said, at taking the source content, it's already written. We are already got kind of at least the outline, at least the core facts. And then what are some headline options? Just like good for brainstorming, good for like, what are sourcing questions to replace augment.

Exactly. Yeah.

Good to hear. Okay, so thinking about, again, technical B2B companies. Any top recommendations for thinking about this new playing field with AI, with expertise and everything else in Eeat, recommendations for doing well in this space, keeping up with change, and just kind of taking advantage of some of these updates to have your best foot forward.

Yeah. Again, I think that's a perfect example of where you'd want to be really careful with something like chat GPT, because if you are providing, or if your goal is to provide content that talks about anything recent, by definition, chat GPT can't do that unless you're using browser mode or plugins or anything, which most people don't have access to yet. But I do think that there's enormous potential to parse through your own data or again, changing the structure of the article that you wrote or maybe adding FAQs based on what you've written. So basically, I really encourage people to take what they've written and use that. There's even new tools like Chatpdf.com, which you can take a PDF document and do the same thing, so you're not limited by tokens or anything like that, which you. Are in chat GPT. You can take all your company's documentation, for example, or you could take a book that a client has written or take whatever upload the PDF, and then you can say, give me a 500 word article summarizing the key points about this PDF. Great. Now you have a summary you can use. Give me five questions the reader might want to know after reading this document.

Or create your own chat bot or your own help center. The more you feed it data, the better it's going to be at language processing. So I would recommend people use it that way, but don't use it to like, hey, Chat GBT, tell me the latest trends in business, because it will actually just lie to you and you won't know.

Right, so use it to summarize, to build off of existing content versus for new content, which makes a lot of sense, but I think a lot of people are just excited about the prospects and thinking, we'll write all our content for us. Be careful. Right? Okay, great. Well, any other tips or information that you think anyone, anything that people need to be aware of or keeping an eye on, I guess, as all of this changes, where would you recommend people?

There's so much, and I feel it happening a bit, even with our company, because I'm on a digital marketing agency, we're like 150 plus people. Everyone's extremely busy. Everyone has the thing that they're doing. I happen to be kind of a nerd who has a moment in my life to be able to be diving into what's happening with AI, what's changing. And it's really important, like what's happening right now, not just with Chat GPT, but really with the technology that OpenAI has created that a lot of companies are now using for different things. It's moving exponentially fast. The developments are happening exponentially quickly. So if you had an opinion about Chat GPT a month ago, your opinion is already out of date. It already does the thing better that you thought it couldn't do. These things are becoming like multimodal, so now they're going to start showing pictures and music and video. It's not just text. Every industry needs to be thinking about how these tools can make them more efficient. And it's groundbreaking, you know what I mean? Like, Chat GPT is going to have a code interpreter mode that they're, I think, alpha testing right now for some users.

You put in a spreadsheet and it tells you all the data. Like, oh, it tells you what I here's what I found in the data. Here's some charts to visualize what I found. It's like a game changer. I really think we're going to see major historical events stemming from this technology in the next few years. So even if it just means having a dedicated person at your company who's trying to be the person that on Monday mornings tells everybody what's going on what are the new tools? What are the big developments? I really think all companies should be paying attention to this.

Yeah, we have already noticed that it's too much for everyone to know little bits and pieces. It really is a dedicated effort to stay on top of it and test technology because now there's so many tools that are based on either chat, GBT, or other related technologies coming out of this. There's a million offerings that do a million different things.

Yeah, it's overwhelming. My whole Twitter BOOKMARKS are like, these tools that I need to try. I cannot keep up with all of this.

I know it's every five minutes there's something new or it changes, or now this tool is backed by somebody new, and now it's extra interesting. Yeah, I get it. Okay, well, I'm glad we're not the only ones feeling overwhelmed by the pace of development here. Okay, great.

Well, even the AI experts are overwhelmed.

I can imagine if you spent all day, every day on this, there would still be things that you're not able to catch up on and do.

Great.

Well, I think that's all the questions I had. Thank you so much for joining us today. Where can people find you? And I guess what other resources would you suggest?

Yeah, I'm most active on Twitter. It's lilyray NYC. I like to kind of humble brag and say, oh, you can just Google my name, because I've spent many years optimizing my name as a keyword. But, yeah, I have a personal website. I have Google. I use LinkedIn and Twitter most frequently, and then I write a lot of articles for our company blog, so we're called Amstif Digital, so lots of new articles on there.

Great. I'll stick notes in the show notes linking to all of this.

Awesome.

Yeah, no, I really appreciate your time. This is great. It's a very quickly evolving space. I feel like in three months, everything we've talked about will have evolved and totally changed.

Exactly.

What can you do?

Exactly? Thanks for having me.

Thanks for joining me today on Content Marketingengineered. For Show Notes, including links to resources, visit TREWmarketing.com podcast. While there, you can subscribe to our blog and our a newsletter and order a copy of my book, Content Marketing Engineer. Also, I would love your reviews on this podcast, so please, when you get a chance, subscribe and leave me your review on your favorite podcast subscription platform. Thanks and have a great day.