Learn the fundamentals of taking a conversion-focused approach to SEO content to meet your audience where they are in their buyer’s journey, and drive sales and revenue for your business.
Part 2 of our SEO mini-series continues with Dale Bertrand, President of SEO agency Fire&Spark. Like many SEO professionals, he didn’t start his career focused on marketing, content, or search. He started as an engineer, first in manufacturing and then in computer engineering building a supercomputer for the NSA, before a stint focused on AI. He brings his rare combination of engineering, AI, and SEO expertise to our episode today, tackling the topic of conversion-focused SEO for engineering and technical companies.
As search engines have evolved and user behavior has changed over time, SEO best practices have changed as well. SEO success no longer comes from keyword stuffing, or a few back-end tweaks, or aggressive link building. Instead, companies are finding success in search by building authority around key topics to gain visibility, and by focusing on conversion intent and optimization in their search strategies.
Dale elaborates on taking a conversion-focused SEO approach to meet your audience where they are in their buyer’s journey, delivering the content they need at that time and using content to drive them to the next step. He gives examples of how companies in the engineering space can use this approach to drive lead generation, revenue, and other key conversion activities. We also discuss the impact AI is having and will have on SEO, and how even as the technology changes, the fundamentals of marketing, SEO, and content development stay the same.
In today's episode, we continue our miniseries on SEO with Dale Bertrand of Fire&Spark and hear how he built a career in SEO out of an engineering and AI background. We discuss taking a conversion focused approach to SEO content to meet your audience, where they're at in their buyers journey, and drive conversion, sale, and revenue for your business. We also discuss how even as all the technology we use changes the the fundamentals of marketing SEO and creating targeted content for your audience stay the same. Let's get started.
Welcome to Content Marketing, Engineered, your source for building trust and generating demand with technical content.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Content Marketing, Engineered. I'm here today with Dale Bertrand, president of Fire&Spark, an SEO company focused on conversion focused SEO content and also authority first SEO. So we'll get into what that entails and why that's so successful as we start talking to Dale. TREW actually worked with Dale and his team last year on an internal SEO audit and roadmap. So we've got firsthand experience as to how this process works, and I will be alluding to that as we chat today. So, Dale, before we dig into your approach on SEO and how technical companies can use a similar approach, I want to hear a little bit more about your background. What led you to SEO in the first place?
Well, happy to tell you a little more about my background. But first, thank you for having me because I love talking about SEO, especially for technical companies, which is a part of my background. So I studied engineering undergrad so I was working as an engineer in manufacturing environment for a while right out of school, then moved over to computer engineering where I was working on a supercomputer for the NSA, so the US. Government. Which is a great story to tell over a beer if anybody wants to hear it. And then from there, I went back to school, studied AI in grad school. When I got out of grad school, I wanted to do marketing. And when I was working as an independent marketing consultant, like digital marketing consultant, everybody was asking me to do SEO because I had worked on some similar technologies when I was in grad school. And then that just turned into Fire&Spark. We're an SEO agency. We focus on SEO and content for SEO, and that's where we are today.
Great. Yeah. I think your engineering background made it very easy for you to understand who TREW is and who our clients are, but also for us to kind of pick up and have a conversation. We're coming from similar background areas and similar experiences. That's great.
Yeah, for sure.
I kind of briefly mentioned that authority first SEO, but I guess tell me a little bit more about how your methodology evolved and what it entails. Just how are you approaching SEO and where are you seeing the most success, especially thinking about some of these more technical companies.
Yes, I'll talk just briefly about the old days. So in the old days when I started doing SEO, that was back when I was in school. So we were optimizing for Lycos and Alta Vista and the Yahoo. Directory. So that makes me a dinosaur. Back then, you could put keywords in the meta keywords tag and you would get ranked for the keywords that you put in there. So it was a long time ago, but really SEO is developed initially as a technical discipline. So if you do the right technical things on your website, you will be rewarded with rankings and traffic. And that is just what is not true anymore. And I think what gets me going is SEO agencies that are still selling SEO, like the technical audit and a checklist of technical things to fix. And sure, they're incorrect and sure, you can fix them, but the idea that that's going to lead to traffic and sales and revenue that actually grows your business is just simply not true. So what we're focused on is content and authority. On the content side, it's conversion focused, SEO content. So when we're doing things like content strategy and keyword strategy and looking at your competitors and your site architecture and all that, it's always conversion in mind.
And it turns out that SEO is different when you're optimizing for sales and revenue and you're not optimizing for rankings and traffic. Now, rankings and traffic are important because that's how you're going to get to the sales and revenue. But you really do different things when you're focused on sales and revenue as the ultimate outcome. And one of the biggest things you do differently is you do your conversion strategy first. Now, I got off the phone with a client today, and they were probably expecting me to talk about sitemaps and robots, TXT for SEO and all that technical stuff. That is no longer going to get you where you need to be. But instead what we were talking about was their conversion strategy. They have a direct conversion strategy, which is people hitting the buy button on their website for the products that they sell, but they also have an indirect conversion strategy, which is people who are downloading PDF guides, leaving their email address, and then what are we going to do with those email addresses? Hit them up with email marketing and also retargeting ads and all that good stuff. But when we start with conversion, you end up with a different strategy.
And then when it comes time to actually write content, you're writing content with conversion in mind, which is the keyword you're targeting. But you need to bring people with that particular intent, with the content to the conversion points that you've identified up front. So that's what has really changed on the conversion side, sorry, on the content side of SEO, which is focus on conversion, to move the needle.
And that's such an interesting perspective to take, because you're right, a lot of people are not leaving with conversion, even though that's realistically. What our clients care about, what most people care about is lead generation form submissions, at least for us. And then, of course, in other industries, it might be that purchase.
Yeah, skill set when you're thinking about conversion, so typically the SEO skill set is technical rankings. Sure. But if that doesn't lead to conversion, who cares? So different skill set around content development, content marketing, marketing, messaging, building out the calls to action. And then also our skill set around coordinating SEO with your efforts on other channels, which is huge, especially for high consideration sales. And then PR, like a PR skill set to get the word out and prove to Google that you've got endorsements from influential individuals and organizations in your space. All of that matters. And it's not traditional SEO.
No, it's not traditional SEO. It's a lot more comprehensive, and it feels much more logical because it's not sitting kind of in a silo over to the side of, great, we wrote our content, now let's go through with the SEO eye, or let's, like you said, kind of architect the site to make sure Google is finding it. It's much more organic sitting in with all of your efforts. Yeah, that's really interesting. So you've mentioned a couple of things, but it seems overall like this method of SEO and kind of how you're approaching it with that conversion lens and with building authority is a lot more ingrained in kind of your overall marketing efforts. And it feels like it sits a lot better with things like messaging and really honing in on who your company is, who you're serving, what your audience cares about. And then now we're creating content for that. Do you agree with that? I guess.
How does yeah, 100%. So Google's search engine is AI based nowadays compared to the rules based search engine back in the day when they first started. And when you're optimizing for a rules based search engine, what's important is to understand the rules. And we call those SEO best practices. And if you're doing the SEO best practices, you get rankings. That world no longer exists. Nowadays, Google is AI based, so there are no rules to really understand. Even the Google engineers don't understand what the rules are. The algorithm is really generating them based on its training. So what's important for us is to understand how the algorithm is trained to achieve the outcomes that Google wants, which is helping your customers to find the information that they need to make a purchase decision. So in order to get there, you have to understand the questions that your customers are asking and then also the information that your customers need. Because Google knows, like Google's AI algorithm, they know the intent behind your customer searches, and they know what content is most accurate and trustworthy and authoritative online to send them to. So you need to do the work of talking to customers.
Maybe as a marketer you're talking to salespeople that have access to customers. Or maybe you're looking at the internal website search box for internal search on your website to figure out what people are searching for to identify what that information is that your customers need. But you need to figure that out. I call it customer intimacy. The more you know about your customers, the better you're going to be able to generate content. And it'll be the content that Google is looking for to serve your customers. And that's how you're going to get traffic. Now, if you can align that content also with your conversion points so that your conversion points are also satisfying the intent and the information that your customers need, that's how you're going to get conversions. And then the last piece I'll say is that you want to make sure that you have that content and conversion points for multiple stages of the buyer's journey. So if they have a problem but they don't really know what the solutions are, they're looking for information. Very early stages of the buyer's journey, you would give them that information and then the conversion point might be to download some more information.
I'm trying to think of something in the manufacturing space. I worked in electronics manufacturing, so it would be something like a data sheet or a footprint that they could use in their design very early on in the process, but then farther along in the process, they're considering designing you in. They've played around I'm using the electronics example here.
No, these are great examples.
Yeah, they've played around with some simulation models of your part maybe, and now they're interested in pricing and they want to know, well, what's the volume discount? I understand what the initial parts are going to cost. So they want to move beyond send me some sample parts, which would also be a good early stage conversion point and call to action. But that would be talking to somebody or filling out a form around the quantities and volumes that you need. And then later on in the customer journey, you have a design win. You're designed in, they're happy with it. And you might be trying to get additional design wins, or you might be trying to get this engineer that's happy with your products to recommend your parts to other engineers that they happen to know, which would be more of a loyalty stage where you would have a completely different call to action. Maybe it's send your friend a reference board or a reference design or something like that. But we want to be thinking about those conversion points upfront at the various stages of the buyer's journey. And then from there we start thinking about, well, what type of content are we going to create, what keywords are we going after, and how do we satisfy the intent behind those keywords so that our customers are getting the information that they need to move one step closer to the purchase.
It's such a logical way of thinking about it, and it aligns so well with a lot of kind of our process of doing strategy front to back, thinking through your audience, thinking through that buyer's journey, and answering questions along the way and kind of anticipating your audience's needs. And I really love how that dovetails in your approach with now, how do we kind of translate that for search? So you've mentioned a couple of different pieces of what you're looking at, but just thinking about kicking off with somebody new, working on SEO for a new company, you've mentioned a couple of different areas that overlap. So you kind of mentioned those customer interviews or getting that customer input. You also mentioned competitive research. So when you're looking at competitors, what are some of those specific areas that you're comparing, and what takeaways are you looking for to kind of understand the competitive landscape and the space that somebody is sitting in?
When we're looking at competitors, we want to understand what content they are providing to our customers. The pitfall that you could run into when you're looking at competitors is it's not always an apples to apples comparison. And if you really think about it and you understand the differences between the different products that you offer or services, and then also the fact that some competitors offer multiple products that might be completely irrelevant to what you offer, it's often really hard to find an apples to apples comparison with a competitor. To the extent that we can do that, it'll help us understand what information they're providing. It'll give us ideas for conversion points to move people farther along in the funnel. It'll help us to build the customer journey so that we have a detailed customer journey and we can start to think of the types of keywords, which is really search intense that customers are looking for, the type of content we could create, and the conversion points that we should be looking at. But then there's also authority. And on the authority side for SEO, when we're looking at competitors, we want to understand, why is Google giving this competitor authority and rankings?
So what are they authoritative for, which could be our product area or something adjacent or something unrelated? And then how are they getting it? And typically, the way they're getting it is they've associated their brand with influential individuals and organizations in their space. And if they're an apples to apples comparison competitor, then those are folks that we would want to associate our brand with to basically build our authority with Google.
Yeah. One thing I really liked, walking through the competitors, you're right. There's definitely areas where there's overlap, but it was kind of nice to see getting a third party's view on the landscape because we come in with a lot of biases around our own companies. And it was nice to kind of see holistically how other companies similar to us, which, you're right, they're not exactly apples to apples, but where they're targeting and where they're ranking to kind of uncover oh, this is an entire area that we have kind of been avoiding. We didn't think it was a fit, but we do see a substantial amount of overlap with the competitors. So I feel like there were a lot of ideas sparked just by seeing that. And it felt I always do this when we look at websites of like, what are other people in the space doing? Because it's also a little bit of like, what does your audience expect to see? If you see it paralleled on four other sites, they probably expect to see that. It seems like that's kind of a common answer that a website is addressing. And it feels like some of this SEO content is the same way.
If four other competitors are addressing a topic in a similar way, that might be what your audience expects to see and it might be what Google expects to see.
Well, yeah, 100%. So when you're talking about what your audience expects to see, you have to give them what they're looking for and then introduce them. It's kind of like give them what they want and then introduce them to what they need. But when we're doing search marketing, just by definition, if they're not searching for X, google is not going to send traffic to our page. If it's about X, there's definitely a subtle art to satisfying people's query and then pivoting to what they need.
That's an interesting topic, and I think this plays in to kind of my next question of we work with a lot of companies in very niche areas. You've mentioned electronics manufacturing. So, you know, a lot of the applications, the products, they're very specific and so there are no broad keywords on this. They're all long tail by nature because they're all highly tailored for what they do. And so it feels sometimes like keywords are a losing battle. You write down a list of keywords, you search them all, there's no volume. So I guess how do you get around that? And how do you approach SEO for technical b, two b companies where you might have a really small target or a very specific target of what you're looking for, either because it is that specific technology or it's an emerging technology that has no search volume because it didn't exist a couple of months ago.
Yeah, I think about it as drawing concentric circles where we have a bullseye and the bullseye is really purchase intent keywords, using the example of electronics, part manufacturer sells discrete integrated circuits or discrete chips. People who are looking specifically for that type of chip would be in the bullseye because they're looking to buy a part. And the website that we're working on is selling those parts. A little bit adjacent to that would be people who are looking for information about designing systems that basically in the applications areas that are relevant to these parts. So it could be something like aviation or motor drive or automotive. But we want to get specific in terms of the applications, like maybe it's low battery or low power applications or mobile applications. We want to get as specific as we can because there will be people in this case, it's A B, two B sale to engineers who are searching for information about how to solve very specific problems in the systems that they're building. And then of course, you got to understand what those problems are. And there will be engineers you can talk to. There will be salespeople applications engineers in house that you can talk to for those specific to uncover those specific problems.
So that's the concentric circle one step outside of the bullseye, but then from there you get into adjacent but relevant spaces like things like low power design or things like that, which and we might have a part that's specifically designed for low power applications, and then we can also talk about that. So we would have to give engineers using this example, we would give them information that they're looking for around designing low power systems, but then we would introduce them to our part and how it solves that problem. And that would be going even farther afield. But we do want to make sure that we own the bullseye because that's going to be basically the highest converting that makes sense.
How important is the keyword research in that example? Because you're speaking a lot of basically our language of topics and answering queries and figuring out what are they searching for and then how does that translate it to what they actually need. But I guess how important in this process is specific keyword research and is thinking back to the old days of SEO women's trail running shoes, size seven, how important is it to really architect out what that query is and where does it appear on the page, I guess, how does the keyword specifically play into that? How critical are they?
So keywords are helpful, but they can be misleading. So what we really want to know at the end of the day is what information do our buyers need to make a purchase decision? And one of many ways that we use to figure that out is to look at the keyword volume in our space of keywords that are relevant to the products or services that we offer. But when we're looking at keywords, a lot of times people don't understand that there's like multiple intents behind a keyword. If people were looking for and I'm just trying to think of a great example here, like a discrete amplifier or something like a chip, are they looking for a footprint for a design? Are they looking for a data sheet and just trying to figure out if this part might even make sense? Have they decided they're going to use an amplifier in this application? Or they might need another type of part to solve this particular problem in their system? So when we're looking at keywords, they will give us ideas for the information that we think our customers might need. But it's not complete. There are multiple intents behind a keyword and there will be intents that do not show up in the keyword research.
That's really important, especially with low volume B to B spaces like the ones that we're talking about. So for the intents that don't show up in the keyword research, we find those by looking at, but basically reading what's been published in the space. So we might have subject matter experts in house that have written content that will help us understand some of the intents. We can talk to application engineers in house, we can talk directly to our customers. But the goal isn't to discover keywords because that's incomplete information. The goal is to understand what's the intent behind the searches for information that our customers are doing online. Because if we can understand what the intent is, what information they need, we can put that information on our website and Google's AI search engine will find it because it knows the intent behind those searches.
That's interesting. So how have you seen as the search landscape has changed, as updates are happening and Google is really prioritizing authority, how has that impacted kind of the thought around how do you optimize your content so that Google can find it? Are there extra steps we need to be taking? Or is it really kind of distilled down into write great content targeted at your audience and it's going to find the mark? It's a little bit art and science. Yeah, it's a little tricky. I know that's a hard question, but.
It'S always been write great content, but the definition has changed. So this is an area where it really helps to skate to where the puck is going. And where the puck is going is that Google is doing a much, much better job. I would say they're 90% of the way there of understanding what your customers are searching for and also understanding if you satisfy that query in the content that you're writing. So it really comes down to the new definition of great content, which is that it's useful to your customers when they're making a buying decision and it's accessible at the end of the day. So that's where we get into it's written in their voice, using the level that they could understand, and it meets them where they're at so that they're not turned off by it. But a great example I can give is that one of the metrics Google is looking at, many metrics related to engagement with your content. So if somebody types in a specific query and they go to your page, do they stay there? Do they bounce off? Do they go right back to Google and click somewhere else?
These are engagement metrics. And if you're writing useful content that satisfies these queries and gives your customers the information they're looking for, google will see that in the engagement metrics that it's monitoring. That is the new definition of great content.
That's great. And that aligns really well. Everyone's talking about Google Analytics for right now and the model shift of making it very engagement and event based. So that makes sense that that would be kind of based on what Google is looking for itself as a search engine. They're eating their own dog food with their analytics and metrics and showing you how to really see that engagement success. That totally makes sense.
Just one tip. A lot of this, what we're talking about is us as marketers doing a better job of understanding the intent behind a keyword. And if you're doing keyword research for SEO, I highly recommend that before you optimize for a keyword, you type that keyword into Google and see what appears on the search results page. Because Google has a lot of data, a lot of behavioral data around what people click on, what they engage with when they type in that keyword. So Google's AI is doing a good job of predicting what somebody will click on, and you can see it when you look at what Google's AI included on the search results page.
That's a good tip. We've kind of followed that advice ourselves and given something similar, especially when it comes to optimizing and creating new content, but also advertising like, look at what Google is serving up, look at what else is there, because that's what somebody's going to expect to see. Yeah, that makes sense. So I guess any other advice knowing kind of the challenges that come with writing content for a technical audience, having it be found in search? Any other advice that you have for somebody who sits in that space of ensuring that they're kind of writing good content by the new definitions, ensuring that they're following best practices, and also that they're just staying up to date on everything that Google has coming out. Just any overall advice or thoughts on that?
I would say that one thing I get frustrated with is that marketers are too focused on blog articles. So writing articles can be a great way to answer your customers questions. So we're not saying totally get rid of them or delete your blog, but there are often more efficient ways to target search intent to deliver that information to your customers in a way that Google could more efficiently crawl and index that content. And your customers can digest it better. Because remember, the role of the content is to move people to the next stage of the buying process. There. So we look at alternative forms of content, like comparison content or collection pages of products or services on your site, niche buying guides or niche collections, or Q and A content, putting purchase intent questions and answers on all of your pages. Or you could create a new FAQ on your site. So typically, if you have an FAQ related to your products or services, it would be for customer service, answering questions, shipping times, lead times, what it's like to work with us. You can imagine an FAQ that's for customer acquisition that is not about your brand and your products, but it's really answering purchase intent questions that you know, your customers have when they're making a buying decision.
So there's just a lot of opportunity to go beyond blog articles and use your writing resources more efficiently, especially when you have conversion in mind. Because blogs aren't the best conversion strategy.
No, they're not. They tend to be pretty high level. They're kind of that entry point of answering an educational question, but not as much product specific or not as much purchase intent.
I want to say one thing quickly, is like, we think about conversion upfront and then we also look at the intents and keywords we're going to go after. Then we choose the content types, which are usually not blog articles. Then the last thing we do is write the copy. Because the role of the copy for any individual page on your website is to move people from the search intent that we're targeting to the conversion point that we've identified for that piece of content, for that stage of the buyer's journey, for that search intent that we're going after. So that's the role of the copy. That's why we do it last after we had everything in mind. The traditional approach to SEO would be do keyword research, don't pay attention to search intent, and then to write blog articles, because usually the only thing people are writing is blog articles for SEO. And once you've achieved some rankings and some traffic, which could be a trickle in the B, two B space, then we start thinking about conversion. Or even worse, every page on the website has the same conversion talk to a salesperson or something like that, which is death to conversion rates and actual lead generation for your SEO content.
Yeah, that's a great point. Well, great. Well, you kind of mentioned a little bit of, first of all, your background in AI, but then also the fact that Google is an AI search engine and we're seeing the kind of advancement of AI very quickly happening. It's getting smarter, it's getting more useful, I guess. How are you seeing the rise of AI search engines paralleled by kind of that generative AI and just SEO AI. How do you see this space changing and what impact have you seen so far? It's a big topic that has like I said, it's been growing and. Changing every five minutes.
It feels like yeah, it feels like everything has changed and nothing has changed at the same time. The nothing that has changed is we still need to craft messaging that targets our customers and then basically aligns with the differentiators of our products and basically our value proposition and get that out there in front of the right people in order to sell product. That's fundamental. That's always going to be the case. Now, how we do it could change when we're looking at Google's AI search engine. It's just getting better at doing what it's always wanted to do, which is to give people the answers that they're searching for, the information that they need, or at least the information that they're searching for. It's just getting a lot better at it like it used to be when it was rules based or before the AI was as good as it is now, where we could put the keywords in the title tags and that's the only thing we had to do. Or back then it was possible to optimize for the search engine, but the search engine is so good now that we really do have to optimize for our customers.
And then the other part of your question was really related to the tools that we all have access to. Chat GBT is huge. We can generate content. The first draft is no good. It'll get better. We still need writer and an editor and all that good stuff. And we still need a human involved in strategy. The tools will get better, but they will never 100% replace humans. If you think about it, we were promised self driving cars from the same AI technology and we were told that by today, in 2023, that half of the cars on the road would be self driving. And it never happened. And the reason why it didn't happen is because it would require the AI to do 100% of the task. With a lot of marketing tasks like strategy and developing content, there are some use cases where AI can do some of it and that's useful and that will help us with productivity and creativity and all that good stuff. But just like self driving cars, it's a decade away from being able to do all of it. And we still need humans involved for strategy, for human inspiration, and for content to tell human stories and identify compelling human stories around the products and the services that we're promoting.
So you have to look at these tools because they are going to change the way that we build content and we build strategy and we promote content and we do marketing. It's happening whether we like it or not. But at the same time, hold on to the fundamentals. And as a marketer, make sure that you're always somebody you want to think of yourself more as a communicator than anything. And these are new tools using to communicate the proper messaging and value propositions of the products that you represent, but they're not going to replace you. And if you try to do what we call one shot article generation or something like that, you're going to be vastly disappointed, especially in Esoteric technical engineering fields for you.
We've done quite a bit of testing, and, yeah, it's making stuff up sometimes it's not following your messaging because it doesn't want to blatantly, rip off other sites. It's wrong. Or there's no content on those topics because it's a new technology and so it doesn't have much to pull from. Yeah. So we've kind of seen some of the pitfalls.
It can accelerate your productivity, for sure. I think we're going to have to use it whether we like it or not. Right. And there will be new versions that come out that are trained on very specific fields. Last time I was in Wisconsin for a conference that was targeting manufacturing, I met the owner of a business that does precision welding specifically for hatches for submarines. Very specific. There will be a time that these AI generative AI tools are trained on very specific Esoteric fields like that, and they can be more helpful, but you're still going to need humans in the mix. I don't see it getting there.
No. That makes a lot of sense. Well, great. Well, Dale, thank you so much for your time today. I guess is there anything else before we kind of sign off that around the topic of search and content and everything we've been talking about? Anything else that you feel is important for A, technical B, two B audience to know or to kind of think about?
What I would say is that every business is different in terms of what you sell, who you sell it to, the value proposition behind your products. So I'd be happy to take a look at people's site if they wanted to really dig into it and figure that out. Something I really enjoy doing on presentations like this, we're able to give some high level guidelines that help people understand how to think about content in SEO, especially for niche technical spaces. But you really have to dive into or work with a marketer to dive into your specific needs to understand what that content strategy, messaging strategy, conversion strategy would look like.
Yeah, that's great. So we'll put some of your info kind of in the show notes, but I guess where can people find you if they want to know more about you, about Byron Spark? Start a conversation.
Yeah. Feel free to email me directly. I mean, I have an engineering background, which is why I love talking to manufacturing companies. I'm Dale. Dale@fireandspark.com all spelled out. You can find me on the Internet. Dale Bertrand speak at a bunch of conferences, so I've got a lot online, so I'd be happy to talk to folks. I love talking about this stuff. If you want somebody to just take a quick look at your website.
Great. Well, thank you so much, Dale. I really appreciate you taking the time and kind of walking us through your approach, what you've seen working, just especially with your background, knowing this audience, and kind of knowing the types of content and types of queries that we're answering. So I really appreciate your time today, and I'm sure our listeners do too.
All right, cool. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's a fun conversation.
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